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Quake III Ownage Guide


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|DRC| Wartex






Wednesday, March 1 2006, 02:08:05 #33320     Quake III Ownage Guide


A few suggestions on how to own in Quake.

Arrow 1. Use good input hardware!

A) Use optical corded mice only. Do not use anything cordless. All that brag about mechanical BoomSlang mice with 3000 dpi is bullshit. Simple cheap Microsoft Optical [Explorer] or Logitech MX510 kicks ass.


B) If you are using a PS/2 mouse (round plug):



If you are on Windows 98, you can use ps2rate utility to make your computer query your mouse more frequently, making it smoother. Default Windows 98 is 40 Hz (updates per second), 60 Hz on NT and 100 on XP/2000, and you can set it up to 200 Hz.
Use that utility at your own risk as it may fry your motherboard and/or mouse.
I used it for 1.5 years and everything worked OK.

If you are on Windows XP/2000:
Start > Settings > Control Panel > Mouse > Hardware > Properties > Advanced Settings, set:
Sample rate : 200
Input buffer Length: 300



USB mice (rectangular plug) run at 125 Hz, and you can change is using this utility. Use at your own risk! Recommended value for most mice is 250 Hz, or 500 for high-end mice like Logitech MX510 or Microsoft Explorer Optical 3.0/4.0.

If you have Service Pack 3, use this utility: http://wartex.net/files/utils/mouse/hidusbf.zip


If you want to check the current refresh rate of your mouse, use the mouserate utility.


C) Remove Windows XP mouse acceleration:

C1) Go to:
Start > Settings > Control Panel > Mouse > Pointer options
uncheck "Enhance pointer precision".



C2) Click on this link, pick "Open" or "Run".
C3) It will ask you "Are you sure you want to add ...... to your registry?", say "Yes", restart your computer.

If your browser displays the contents of the file instead of running it, save the file to your desktop first, then run it and do steps C3 - C4.

C4) Restart your computer.
This will make your mouse feel like Windows 98. No OS acceleration will help your accuracy.


D) Get a keyboard that has the following key layout. I swapped keys between a black and a white keyboard, so you won't find this "color scheme" in stores. Tongue Look at the size and location of BACKSPACE, ENTER, ALT, CTRL, DEL, END, PG DOWN:



This one is made by Qtronix, called Scorpius 98a.



Arrow 2. It's all about control!

A) Use arrow keys instead of A-W-S-D if your DEL, END and PG DOWN keys are right above your arrows, if there is no 1-row space in between. Use those keys, as well as keypad END and INSERT, and right SHIFT and CTRL for weapon selection.


B) Do not use mouse wheel for selecting weapons.


C) If you have a mouse that has extra buttons, use them!


D) Use the mouse wheel key for some action you don't do too much, like crouching.


E) Move your keyboard to the left (if you are right-handed) to make more space for your mouse.


F) Use your right mouse button to jump, do not use the spacebar.


G) Know your mouse sensitivity. To find out the numeric value, type /sensitivity in your console. Keep in mind, when you connect to servers with different mods, quake will load different configuration files and you may lose just because you had the wrong mouse sensitivity.


H) Try using 2-3 different sensitivity settings, lower for duels (1v1) and higher team play (TDM, FFA, CTF). It is almost impossible to win Free-For-All with low sensitivity, you simply will not be fast enough to turn around. Sometimes you wonder how people are able to play with sensitivity 15 or 30 and yours is only 5, answer is: it depends on your OS setting and drivers.



Arrow 3. Make sure your network settings are ok.
I use these:

A) /rate 10000+ - 10 kb/sec network speed (max is 90000)


B) /snaps 40 - allow up to 40 updates a second from the server (default is 20 and NOT recommended)


C) /cl_maxpackets 63 - send 63 updates a second to the server.
Take a look at this article: http://wartex.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1103


D) /cl_packetdup 0 - do not duplicate network packets for reliability (do not use on Dial-up or unstable DSL, try it, may improve gameplay)


E) /cl_timenudge -50 - roll back 50 m/s, gives you an ability to cut lag by 50 ms. Try using values between -50 (yes, negative) and up to 200 (if you are playing a dial-up'er or on a laggy server).


Recommended settings for InstaUnlagged 1.1/1.2 servers, depending on average opponent ping:
-50 to 0 if his ping is 0 - 100
0 - 50 if his ping is 100 - 160 (negative lags you)
50 - 100 if his ping is 160 - 200
100 - 200 if his ping is above 200

Recommended settings for other mods are -50 through 50.

If you have 80 ms or more ping difference, you may be playing a very unfair game. If your ping difference is above 150 don't even bother playing because even noobs will kick the shit out of you, unless it is unlagged mod.

Negative values may result in very choppy visuals [depends on mod, your CPU and/or video card]. Mods that have "unlagged" code are not affected by this, and you will only notice the "choppiness" if you are spectating someone and you have a negative cl_timenudge.
Using cl_timenudge (whether negative or positive), you do not make yourself look more choppy or smooth to other people. If people "skip" or "warp", they have a very low cl_maxpackets, rate or com_maxfps value, slow connection, packet loss, slow computer or videocard, or all of the above in combinations.

If you are running a server, use PunkBuster to force lower limits to 60 for com_maxfps, 6000 for rate and 30 for cl_maxpackets:

PB_SV_Cvar cl_maxpackets IN 30 125
PB_SV_Cvar rate OUT 0 3000
PB_SV_Cvar com_maxfps IN 60 200


F) /cg_projectilenudge - In some mods, you can slightly correct the projectile latency so that you can dodge rockets easier. Set it to your ping (positive) value. It will make rockets explode inside the walls or plasma appear farther from the gun when other people shoot, but that's the price for it.



Arrow 4. Graphics!

A) Make sure you get the most of your video card!
Find out how fast is your videocard - pull down your console, type:

/r_mode 4
/r_fullscreen 1
/cg_fov 120
/vid_restart
/timedemo 1
/demo four


This will set your resolution to 800x600 and run Quake full screen, play an included demo called "four.dm_67" in a "performance test" mode - very fast. Close console and see how many FPS was rendered on average. If you get up to 150 FPS (frames per second), type:
/seta com_maxfps 125
This will cap your FPS to 125 - best value for smooth gameplay and best jumps. To find out how jumps are related to com_maxfps, read http://ucguides.savagehelp.com/Quake3/FAQFPSJumps.html

If you get alot more than 150, exit your Quake, right-click on your desktop and pick Properties from the menu. Go to your video card settings, "performance" or "settings" tab, and usually nVidia and ATi based cards will let you choose the "antialiasing" and "anisotropic filtering" level. Set AA (antialiasing) to 2x and AF (anisotropic filtering) to 2x, uncheck "Let application choose" to enforce the setting. AA is a technology for smoothing the jagged edges of objects in the game. If you looks close at your weapon, you will see it's outline is not smooth and is "jaggy", you will see 1-pixel "steps". With AA on, neighboring pixels will be blurred to make a semaless transition, it will make objects look more real, and easier to see from far away. Repeat everything again, to see how many FPS your videcard can yield. If you still get 150 or more FPS, keep increasing AA level until your FPS starts dropping to 150. AF increases the texture quality. Play around but don't expect significant results. You may want to sacrifice AF for AA.
There are 2 options: play with AA on lower resolution, lets say 800x600 or without but on a 1024x768, getting the same FPS. I prefer 800x600 with AA on. At high resolutions (1024x768 and above) some objects will become smaller because they depend on pixel size.
Once you gained the best combination of quality and performance, set com_maxfps to 125.


B) Make sure your monitor brightness and contrast allow you to see dark textures. Play around with Quake variables:
r_gamma - (brightness in the game menu)

r_overbrightbits - increase entity (weapons, ammo etc) brightness. Use fractional values for r_overbrightbits between 1 and 2 with 0.05 step

r_mapoverbrightbits (try setting "r_mapoverbrightbits 3") variable to make textures lighter.

Every time you change vid settings you will nees to restart the video system - /vid_restart.


C) Make sure your field of view is greater than default 90 degrees. Set it to 100, 110 or 120, using /cg_fov ### where ### is the value.


D) Use /r_picmip (try integer between 1 - 7) to control the texture quality. If you have a crappy video card, try values 3 through 7. Anything above 3 will make your textures really blurry. Some people purposefully "gay" their graphics with "r_picmip 9" to see better. While it will help your graphic FPS (frames per second), in general does not really make the game enjoyable. It's like playing ping-pong on the yellow table with a black ball in a snow-white room, wearing orange costumes.


E) If mod supports CPM textures and models, use them! Type:
\\cg_enemymodel keel/pm
\\cg_enemycolors 2222
(you can try "iiii" instead of "2222")
4 numbers are used because each represents the body part. In some mods it may be a hex value like RRGGBB where RR GG BB are hex red, green and blue channel (color) values.


F) Remove the nasty red damage spot and damage kick!
\\cg_damagedraw 0
\\cg_damagekick 0
(this may not work in all mods, doesn't work in InstaUnlagged)

G) Customize your HUD if mod allows it.
Use my config for X-Battle:
These are the recommended settings for good gameplay (for X-Battle):

-----------------------8<-------------------------
seta cl_punkbuster "1"
seta com_maxfps "125"
seta com_blood "1"
seta cg_damagedraw "0"
seta in_mouse "1"
seta cl_maxpackets "63"
seta cl_packetdup "0"
seta cl_mouseAccel "0"
seta cl_freelook "1"
seta cl_allowDownload "1"
seta cg_autoswitch "0"
seta m_filter "1"
seta cl_maxPing "150"
seta rate "20000"
seta snaps "50"
seta model "sorlag/blue"
seta headmodel "sorlag/blue"
seta team_model "sorlag/blue"
seta team_headmodel "sorlag/blue"
seta color1 "0"
seta color2 "4"
seta cl_anonymous "0"
seta cg_predictItems "0"
seta cg_viewsize "100"
seta r_picmip "0"
seta r_fullscreen "1"
seta r_vertexLight "0"
seta r_subdivisions "4"
seta r_lodbias "-1"
seta r_flares "1"
seta r_fastsky "0"
seta r_drawSun "0"
seta r_railWidth "32"
seta r_railCoreWidth "6"
seta r_railSegmentLength "8"
seta com_soundMegs "8"
seta cg_brassTime "2500"
seta cg_drawCrosshair "4"
seta cg_drawCrosshairNames "1"
seta cg_marks "1"
seta cg_shadows "1"
seta cg_drawGun "1"
seta cg_zoomfov "22.5"
seta cg_fov "120"
seta cg_stereoSeparation "0.4"
seta cg_gibs "1"
seta cg_draw2D "1"
seta cg_drawStatus "1"
seta cg_drawTimer "1"
seta cg_drawFPS "0"
seta cg_drawSnapshot "0"
seta cg_draw3dIcons "1"
seta cg_drawIcons "1"
seta cg_drawAmmoWarning "1"
seta cg_drawAttacker "1"
seta cg_drawRewards "1"
seta cg_crosshairSize "17"
seta cg_crosshairHealth "1"
seta cg_crosshairX "0"
seta cg_crosshairY "0"
seta cg_simpleItems "0"
seta cg_lagometer "1"
seta cg_railTrailTime "400"
seta cg_runpitch "0"
seta cg_runroll "0"
seta cg_bobpitch "0"
seta cg_bobroll "0"

seta cg_teamChatTime "3000"
seta cg_teamChatHeight "0"
seta cg_forceModel "1"
seta cg_deferPlayers "1"
seta cg_drawTeamOverlay "0"
seta cg_drawFriend "1"
seta cg_teamChatsOnly "0"
seta cg_noVoiceChats "0"
seta cg_noVoiceText "0"
seta cg_cameraOrbitDelay "50"
seta cg_scorePlums "1"
seta cg_smoothClients "1"
seta cg_noTaunt "0"
seta cg_noProjectileTrail "0"
seta cg_oldRail "1"
seta cg_oldRocket "1"
seta cg_oldPlasma "1"
seta cg_trueLightning ".5"
seta cm_playerCurveClip "1"
seta cg_bobup "0.005"
seta cl_timeNudge "0"
seta cl_anglespeedkey "1.5"
seta cg_pmove_fixed "0"
seta cg_enableBattleHUD "1"
seta cf_Pickupstring "16x16"
seta cf_Following "8x8"
seta ch_crosshaircolor "3"
seta ch_Weaponswitch "1"
seta ct_Death "<- ^7[^1DIED^7] - ^1POSITION LOST"
seta ct_Respawn "<- ^7[^1RESPAWN^7]"
seta cg_damageKick "0"
seta cg_enemyModel "keel/pm"
seta ct_enableTrigger "1"
seta ch_StatusbarFormat "3"
seta ch_TeamBackground "0"
seta cf_Statusbar "16x16"
seta cf_Teamoverlay "8x12"
seta cg_nomip "0"
seta cg_altLightning "2"
seta cg_altGrenades "1"
seta cg_altPlasma "1"
seta ch_ColorLocations "1"
seta ch_HealthColors "0"
seta ch_Ranking "0"
seta cg_nochatbeep "0"
seta cf_Fragmsg "8x8"
seta cg_enemyColors "iiii"

seta cg_BattleScoreboard "1"
seta ch_drawSpeed "1"
seta cg_deadbodyfilter "0"
seta cg_forceColors "0"
seta ch_WarmupInfoHide "0"
seta cg_delag "1"
seta cf_WeaponName "12x12"
seta cf_WeaponSwitch "32x32"
seta ch_Obituaries "1"
seta ch_drawFlagNames "0"
seta ch_FilterLocationsTeamchat "0"
seta cg_oldCTFSounds "0"
seta cg_autoAction "0"
seta ch_3waveFont "0"
seta cg_crosshairPulse "1"
seta cf_Teamchat "8x12"
seta ch_TeamchatOnly "0"
seta cf_Scores "12x12"
seta ch_Pickupitem "1"
seta ch_InverseTeamChat "1"
seta cg_cmdTimeNudge "0"
seta cg_projectileNudge "0"
seta cg_optimizePrediction "1"
seta cg_truePing "0"
seta cf_CrosshairNames "8x8"
seta cf_TeamCrosshairHealth "12x12"
seta cg_muzzleFlash "0"
seta cf_Vote "12x12"
seta cg_MaxlocationWidth "16"
seta cg_teamRails "1"
seta cg_showPlayerLean "1"
seta cg_useScreenShotJPEG "0"
seta cg_execVstr ""
seta cg_ammoCheck "0"
seta cg_followpowerup "0"
seta ch_skinScores "0"
seta ch_showDamage "0"
seta cf_FCName "8x8"
seta ch_TimeoutSINa "60"
seta ch_TimeoutSINb "60"
seta cg_drawPing "2"
seta cg_atmosphericEffects "1"
seta cg_lowEffects "0"
seta cg_lightningImpact "1"
seta cg_newCTFShader "0"
seta cg_drawDecals "1"
seta ch_graphs "1"
seta ct_Took "Took #i"
seta cg_damageDraw "1"
seta ch_TimeoutAnim "1"
seta ch_teamOverlay "p12n h/aw l"
seta ch_selfOnTeamOverlay "1"
seta ch_unknownLocation "unknown"
seta ch_stripClantags "0"
seta ch_AttractFlagCarrier "0"
seta cf_AttractFlagCarrier "8x18"
seta ch_showTeamoverlayWhenDead "1"
seta cf_AmmoStatusbar "8x8"
seta ch_weaponListFlash "1"
seta ch_weaponListDrawAll "0"
seta ch_weaponListBackground "1"
seta ch_weaponList "1"
seta ch_TeamCrosshairHealth "1"
seta ch_statusbarStyle "1"
seta ch_recordMessage "1"
seta ch_fragMessage "1"
seta ch_drawPickup "1"
seta ch_drawHealthMeters "0"
seta ch_crosshairTeamInfo "1"
seta ch_CrosshairNamesLeft "1"
seta cg_smokeradius_rl "64"
seta cg_smokeradius_gl "32"
seta cg_smokegrowth_rl "1"
seta cg_smokegrowth_gl "1"
seta cg_smoke_sg "1"
seta cg_scoreTransparency "1.0"
seta cg_q3compScoreboard "1"
seta cg_statScrollTime "0.15"
seta cg_oversampleMouse "1"
seta cg_NoMOTDDisplayDuringDemo "0"
seta cg_followviewcam "1"
seta cg_followkiller "0"
seta cg_float "0"
seta cg_fallKick "1"
seta cg_enableOSPHUD "1"
seta cg_Customloc "0"
seta cg_clientLog "0"
seta cg_showDamage "1"
-----------------------8<-------------------------

Bold ones are critical. Paste this into graph.cfg file, run quake, type
\\exec graph.cfg
\\vid_restart
You will not like some settings probably, this is just a suggested config.



Arrow 5. Sound!

A) Use your headphones, not speakers.

B) Get rid of the background music if you are into some serious gameplay ( "/s_musicvolume 0" for Quake music).

C) If you have no sound or your channels swap after you switch to the windowed mode, try restarting the sound system using /snd_restart

D) Make the effect volume moderately loud, not to damage your ears.

E) If your sound card has an equalizer/band filter capability, set all frequencies below 1 KHz and above 5KHz to half volume - to save your ears. Long exposures to low frequency sounds and high frequency loop sounds (fire, wind etc) will damage your ears.

F) Use good headphones. Shitty $20 headset will not only make you play worse, it may also damage your ears.

G) Get a decent sound card too. Using your built-in AC'97 "SoundKrystal" is like not respecting yourself. I recommend Creative's, M-Audio or Turtle Beach products.



Arrow 6. If it's a team play, communicate with your teammates.
If you see 2 enemies nailing your friend, distract them so he can run away and pick up some health bubbles and armor. Kill yourself to return to base. Make a bind /bind <key> kill so that you can hit the [key] and return to the base in CTF. Don't do it in TDM because it will give your team a negative frag. Make binds like /bind z say_team "I have the enemy flag" or /bind x say_team "I have Quad" so that players don't nail you insanely thinking it's an enemy with a Quad Damage, because it's hard to see your skin behind the blue glow. Use voice chat software like Skype or TeamTalk



Arrow 7. Know and use the features of the mod.
On space maps in InstaUnlaged CTF, if a player with a flag or the flag itself falls into the abyss, it will be automatically returned to the respective base or spawn on the closest platform (in IU 1.2). Do not carry your own flag back to the base, just fall into the space with it of the IU 1.2 "sacrifice" setting is turned off. If you see the enemy in the mid-air with your flag, shoot him and your flag will fall into the space. If your opponent is running away with his flag, do not shoot him in the mid-air because his flag will fall into the space and will be returned to his base instantly. Wait till he lands somewhere and then kill him. Also, if the flag is caugh in the door in IU1.2, it will return to the base.

Arrow 8. Be creative!
Make up your own tricks, jumps, feel the physics of the game engine. I invented a few jumps in InstaUnlagged and they do help to win.

Arrow 9. 99% of victory are in your head.
The key to success is learning the style of your opponents, predicting them, controlling the map and items, moving fast, keeping track of what opponents' items (health, armor, ammo), time (use "/cg_drawtimer 1" to see the match clock in the top right corner), choosing the right weapon.
Reaction and accuracy is somewhat secondary. I watched demos of many professional players, and it's sad to see that everything is limited to:

1. Pick up megahealth and red armor
2. Run through the same path (with slight variations) picking up all strong weapons and health.
3. Wound your opponent with a rail gun on a long range, then use lightning gun or machinegun, rocket on a short and finish with a super shotgun or plasma.

Same old tactic since Quake I, over and over....
I played CPM today with a guy who was very skillful, he led 8-1, I made it 9-15 just because he missed his megahealth and red armor spawn time, and I picked up the railgun and kicked his ass 7 frags in a row, watching his pathetic attempts to get to the railgun and pick up the megahealth, trying to nail me with a plasmagun. I broke his "cycle" and he started loosing like a noob. Hehhehee! (Wartex went to play more CPM Very happy )

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, enough for now... Hope this helps you. In no way I'm saying this is the way it should be. All this text above is my knowledge and my experience. Everyone is encouraged to post his/her ideas and suggestions.

Evil Smile

Updated Nov 23 2004
Updated Mar 1 2006


Last edited by |DRC| Wartex on 23:56, Wednesday Mar 25 2009; edited 7 times in total
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|DRC| Zyprexa






Wednesday, March 1 2006, 04:24:40 #33328     


Man that's so awesome! Thanks for doing all this work for us Wartex!
Very Cool
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El Muerto






Wednesday, March 1 2006, 04:52:03 #33329     


hella good job
and thanks for the personal assisitance
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|DRC| Wartex






Thursday, December 7 2006, 01:27:39 #38394     


bump Smile
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OLDie






Thursday, December 7 2006, 09:35:04 #38399     


This post certainly helped me in my feable attempt at X-Battle all weps - CPMA - shame a lot of it doesn't work in IU, if it did my accuracy would take a huge jump!

From a newb to a master this post has all of the nuances necessary to be a better player in most mods. The amount of time and testing that it took you to make this post is truly amazing.

Thanks again! Very happy
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|DRC| Marblecake






Tuesday, December 12 2006, 14:13:47 #38473     


Can we get some battle going. Everytime I go to the server its cpm and I get raped by awesome cpm players.

Yes this config helps a ton. I remember I couldnt kill people at all when I first started battle.
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"Shrink" Are you a assasin? "Me" Assasin sounds so exotic. Im just a murderer.
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OLDie






Tuesday, December 12 2006, 14:25:51 #38474     


So what has changed... ROFL ROFL
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|DRC| Marblecake






Tuesday, December 12 2006, 14:42:56 #38476     


Ill still take you on old man. While I eat dinner only using one hand. Twak!
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OLDie






Tuesday, December 12 2006, 19:35:03 #38483     


As long as I am blindfolded... Show butt
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|DRC| psycheus






Saturday, December 23 2006, 15:40:04 #38685     


Very nice write up Wartex!
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Septra






Sunday, December 24 2006, 14:24:38 #38700     


Why not use spacebar?? Where did you place your zoom?
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Septra






Sunday, December 24 2006, 14:25:14 #38701     


oops 2 years too late, feel free to delete these posts
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|DRC| Wartex






Sunday, December 24 2006, 14:56:02 #38702     


That's ok man, Quake 3 is always alive.

I don't use spacebar because I won't be able to strafe-jump as precisely, and I use one of my mouse buttons (I use Logitech MX 518) for zoom. I also rarely zoom, I can hit pretty tiny objects far away Smile
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|DRC| Iceman






Tuesday, December 26 2006, 16:21:21 #38714     


I use spacebar for guantlet and it works pretty effectivley Very happy
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|DRC| Death






Tuesday, December 26 2006, 19:46:51 #38718     


I don't play it anymore but I used:

Right mouse-button: move forward
Left mouse-button: fire
Space: jump
Crouch: /
Strafe keys: < and >
Wheel: select weapon (don't knock it, it worked for 2 years + Very happy)
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|DRC| SLIM






Wednesday, December 27 2006, 08:20:13 #38732     


death, it would take me a year to re-train my brain to use your conrtols Smile
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|DRC| Death






Wednesday, December 27 2006, 10:27:53 #38742     


Well at the very first I used shitty DooM controls I had which consisted of:

[rant]

Forward arrow: Move Forward
Backward arrow: Move backward
Right arrow: Move Right
Left arrow: Move left
Shift: Run
Ctrl: Fire

I used these for a while in Q3 and found it was virtually impossible. I even did it without free look on mouse! I can tell you now, it sucked.

Then I went round to a friend's house who had Q3 too and he beat me. I had a go on his and his controls were far better for me so I reconfigured mine to what they were in the finish (the ones in the thread above). I went back the next week and kicked his ass Mr Green. They did work but I found people who used different keys for different guns ended up out-gunning me. I just couldn't be bothered to change it round after all that time. I did use 'F' at one time to change to railgun and put the sensitivity to 3 so it was easier to use and I also made the wheel put the sensitivity back to normal when I used it. It was about 6 I think.

In the end I got rid of that too and just played with what was in the last thread. I think the longest I kept a config without tweaking something was probably something like 3 months Mr Green.

[/rant]
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|DRC| Wartex






Thursday, December 28 2006, 00:42:10 #38747     


He uses mouse like psycheus used to - to run forward. I call it "The Gas Pedal" ROFL ROFL ROFL
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|DRC| SLIM






Thursday, December 28 2006, 06:26:33 #38754     


haha the motherfuckin gas pedal Tongue
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|DRC| Wartex






Thursday, December 28 2006, 19:39:43 #38767     


And spacebar for jumping I call "Fire Alarm".
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Sunday, December 31 2006, 08:10:41 #38821     


|DRC| Wartex wrote:
And spacebar for jumping I call "Fire Alarm".


hah! well i am buzzin, so i am going to play some UT with the fire alarm!
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|DRC| Wartex






Thursday, February 19 2009, 00:48:33 #41303     


rise from the dead
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|DRC| Isobarik






Monday, March 23 2009, 23:22:45 #41330     


A few paragraphs of win right there...

Thanks for the info.
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